Season 2, Episode 40
Welcome to the Coaching Studio Podcast
This podcast features fun, lively conversations with masterful coaches who are creating an impact. Get to know them, their journey into coaching, and discover what wisdom they would offer you about being a better coach.
Let’s go!
the Coaching Studio Guest in the Chair
I am happy to share Christine Billy, MCC, with the Coaching Studio Podcast.
Quick Links from Episode
Learn more about Christine Billy, MCC, by visiting her website, and check out what she is up to!
Find Christine on LinkedIn to connect with her.
Credits
- Host: Lyssa deHart, LICSW, MCC
- Music: Frolic by Harrison Amer
- Production Editing: Lyssa deHart
- Social Media and Communications: Michele Logan
About This Episode
I am happy to introduce Christine Billy, MCC, to the Coaching Studio. Join us as we dive into the Karpman Drama Triangle and discover how a coach can use the model to inform their curiosity and build their own courage. Christine and I explore what it means to come to the center of the triangle and how as a coach, to move from helper to coach. Focusing on the questions and not the solutions. How our preferred role influences the work we individually need to do to find our own center so that we can show up fully with our clients and in our lives.
Christine shares, “I think life is about the learning that I do too. From control to openness. That’s our wisdom because we are all unique. We all have a story in life. My experience in coaching is that if you create a safe space, a respectful space, where there is no judgment on the curiosity, and you are with the person or the team, then at some point, people dare to say things sometimes that they have never said to anybody else. And um, that’s what we name a moment where they realize that they can face their emotions, their beliefs, and it’s not dangerous; it’s a relief. So it’s a unique experience.”
Scientist and Master Certified Coach (MCC ICF) Christine Billy is passionate about Influencing individuals, teams, and organizations at all levels. High-performance coach, trainer, and speaker working with leaders and teams to transform obstacles into opportunities. A scientist who held project and team leadership roles in the Pharma industry for 20 years. A catalyst of change to liberate our best potential. With more than 20 years of enterprise-wide business transformation experience. Coached and trained more than 2000 individuals and Fortune Global 500 executive teams. Coaching on stage (conferences, workshops) and online. Podcaster and LinkedIn Live facilitator.
Christine is a Ph.D., Laureate of the Faculty of Pharmacy of Paris, and MBA. She is MCC, SHRM-SCP, CCMP, NPDP, PMP, PMI-ACP and EQ-i 2.0, EQ 360, Hogan advanced, TalentX7, Saville, and Marshall Goldsmith certified. Former Board Member of the International Coach Federation (ICF) Switzerland. Lead Trainer, Mentor, and Supervisor of ICF Accredited coaching school. Speaker and Author. Executive Advisor and Ambassador of the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches (ACEC).
Read the transcript of this episode of the Coaching Studio Podcast:
| Lyssa deHart | Hello, I’m Lyssa deHart. I’m the host of, the Coaching Studio, and I am super excited today to have Christine Billy. She is an MCC coach with the International Coaching Federation here in the studio today. Christine, welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today. |
| Christine Billy | Thank you so much, Lyssa. It’s such a pleasure. And, you know, we are smiling on both sides. We are ready for all these things. Uh, I’m really feeling curious, excited, and very, um, peaceful at the same time. |
| Lyssa deHart | Wonderful, wonderful. Well, as you know, part of what I’m really curious about is what are the influences that bring a person into coaching and ultimately keep a person so engaged with coaching that they move from ACC to PCC to MCC, or just PCC to MCC, however that happens for them. Um, and I would love to hear a little bit about the journey that brought you into coaching and led you to your MCC. |
| Christine Billy | Yes, it’s a long journey. It’s an important question. I’ve been reflecting a lot on that, how I came to coaching. Uh, I’m a scientist by background, and I decided first, uh, to focus on science. Before I focus, I decided to focus on coaching. Uh, I was always interested by the topic of health. What do we mean when we talk about health? So, from a very young age, I was interested in this topic and asking myself these questions. So I said, m maybe a good idea is to become a scientist so I can understand how the body works. Because initially I thought health is about the body. This question is still with me. Uh, what do we mean when we talk about health? The difference now at my age, with my experience, compared to the beginning of my life, is that I perceive it differently in terms of, uh, I was focused on the body initially. That was my first perception or approach of the topic. Now I see it more holistically. So this happens. Full life and career I started. So I became a scientist. I did research because I’m French. You probably for those who are listening, you probably get from my French accent, I’m from M Paris initially. So I studied there. Right. Um, and then I did research for the French government, and then I moved to US. And I did research for the US. Government. And then I went back to Europe and I joined the pharma industry, where I spent 20 years of my life leading projects, uh, leading teams, change management. And then I was an internal coach for a big company before I set up my own business, my own coaching business, ten years ago. So during this journey, my question was still there, what do we mean when we talk about health? But then I realize that it’s not only about the body, and it’s not only about developing medicines to cure disease and ensure people are healthy. It’s, um, about the mind. It’s about the relationship, it’s about our interaction with the external world. And this shift happened when I joined project teams. There was a shift in my mind. I said, the relationship with people, it’s even more interesting than being in the lab and mixing ingredients. When you mix people when you mix. |
| Lyssa deHart | People different kinds of ingredients right, exactly. |
| Christine Billy | My fascination for connecting things right. And observing what happens when I was in the lab and mixing ingredients and then observing what happens shifted from my interest. Okay, if I work with this person or if this person is working with this one, what happens? Mhm so I found it was another level of complexity and, uh, interest. And I said, yeah, it’s another perspective on health, a more holistic one. So that’s why it pushed me to move outside of the lab, which was not an easy decision. And gradually I got experience in leading and then I was nicely, uh. |
| Lyssa deHart | Pushed. |
| Christine Billy | Uh, towards, uh, coaching, being on the side and coaching leaders and teams and to work entrepreneurships. M so it’s a journey, to summarize, it’s a journey from, uh, the common point is health and, ah, it’s from pureeing to presenting because I really believe that coaching is a great tool to prevent disease in a broad sense. Mhm so that’s what it is. This is where I am at the moment. I’m passionate about coaching because for me, it’s a tool to prevent disease and to participate or contribute to a healthy world in general. |
| Lyssa deHart | Well, and I want to talk more about that in a second, but I really want to also notice, I think it’s really interesting that as a small child, you’re already beginning with the inquiry of, uh, what does this even mean? And I love that. I just want to acknowledge that because I think that’s such a powerful mindset to begin in any kind of inquiry from, what does it even mean? Because what it means to people is going to be as fluid as the number of people you’re exploring right. As to what the meaning of a thing is, like health, um, or whatever the thing is that you’re looking at. But I love that you started there. |
| Christine Billy | Thank you, Lyssa and I want to take maybe the opportunity to say that we know coaches and deserve, that the power is in the question, not the solution. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah. That it really is about the inquiry and not the solution. And I think one of the things that I’m also hearing you talk about is as you start to look at sort of the complex ingredients, uh, that are now human ingredients to, um, what it is that you’re studying. There is this interconnectedness of relationships that are so pivotal to how, whether it is the individual or the organization or the team is working. In your exploration, what are you noticing as this holistic health perspective that you’re bringing into your coaching? How does that framework work for you or look for you. |
| Christine Billy | Yeah. It’s really this aspect of the power is in the openness, the curiosity. And I was just ready to say that I’m really happy and grateful for having this discussion together because we met recently, and it seems to me that there is a power in that. Right. What we are doing here now, pretty spontaneously, for sure, there is an intention on both sides. We know what we want to achieve with that in terms of message learning and getting to know each other or many, many other things. Right. And we enjoy to explore that together, not knowing exactly what’s going to happen during the discussion. So that openness to, uh, the intention. Okay. The vision plus the openness on the process is really key, I think, uh, to have impact and happiness in life. |
| Lyssa deHart | I agree with you. I do think this is that sort of that spontaneous, um, spontaneous. Obviously, we planned it to be together today, and yet there’s a spontaneity and where will the conversation take us? And to your point, that is also coaching, right? Where we go into the conversation without a predetermined set of, uh, like, this is what we’re going to do today. And instead go in with the spontaneity and openness to what shows up so that we can be fully in the moment with another human being in that relationship. Um I love that. And it really is a parallel um, it really is a parallel to coaching, but also just to life. Like, what is the mindset that you approach life with and what are you discovering? Like, what is the mindset that you approach life with and how that impacts that overall health? What have you discovered? |
| Christine Billy | So I would summarize at this point of my understanding, my personal experience, and the one of people I coach. It’s really the suspect of caring on one side and daring to say things or to face emotion. For me, uh, over my life, it was a journey to daring. Okay. Uh, uh, because I know we are here also to explore why coaching and why MCC and all of that. So it’s also to, um the caring was always there with me because of this question, what we are talking about when we talk about health. So I have that in myself, but. |
| Lyssa deHart | In your bones already. |
| Christine Billy | In my DNA. In my bones. Like many coaches and leaders to serve, and sometimes without, uh, even noticing, we enter what we name the drama triangle, where we have more helpers than you’re really asserted right in the center of the triangle. And so I had to learn how to move from this helper roller to the center of the triangle, where you care and you dare. So that daring part was really transformational for me. Dare to say things in a respectful way, uh, respect yourself so that you share what you observe and you ask questions to understand the other side. So that’s an increased relationship, right? |
| Lyssa deHart | Uh, yeah. And I love that you brought up Kaufman’s dreaded drama triangle. Um, and you’re talking about it in a way that I haven’t heard before, which is this way of being in the center of it versus at any one of the three edges as either the helper, the victim, I guess the victims down here, the victim or the perpetrator. If we want to use that aggressor, if we use that language. Um, but how is that journey into the center of the triangle? Would you be willing to share a bit about your own journey into the center of the triangle? |
| Christine Billy | Yes. Uh, there are some parts, and not so fun parts because the life of a victim or helper or persecutor is not always easy. Right. So, um, the helper traditionally will, um, be, um, motivated to help, even if nobody is asking for help. Right. Um, let me help you. The weight on your shoulders every day, lots of responsibility, looking for opportunities to help unconsciously. And so I asked for her, this tension in the neck and the shoulders. And I couldn’t figure out I knew by training as a scientist that there is a science of the body. The body expresses what, uh, the mind, um, doesn’t want to express. So my body was expressing something, but I couldn’t make sense of it. I learned with my clients also. Uh, so I realized gradually exploring, trying to ask myself different questions, and then connecting with my body, I said, m, you are trying to control something here. You are trying to do too much, uh, you are trying too hard. You are trying to find solutions for others because you are, uh, maybe like this by nature, and you have been trained and rewarded for that. Right. |
| Lyssa deHart | Uh, throw something out here and see what you think of this. Because I wrestled with a similar I mean, I love the Kaufman drama triangle. I think it’s such, uh, an amazing, um, theoretical, um, idea to play with. Right. And so one of the thoughts that I have also had is that sometimes we get comfortable in that role, whatever the role is that we found ourselves in as a result of the fact that we get a benefit from it. Like, I get to help people. People appreciate my helping them. So I get this sort of side benefit. But also, if I’m focused on helping you, it takes the attention off of the work that I might need to do for myself. And so, uh, I’m m just going to throw that out there because I am curious your thoughts on that. |
| Christine Billy | Absolutely. I fully agree with that. It’s a, uh, copying mechanism. Means it’s a way not to face your emotions. Okay. Ah, it takes courage to face emotions. So we all carry emotions from the past. And sometime we say, no, I don’t want to look at this. Yeah. Exactly my way to deal with that was to work a lot, um, to achieve a lot. And I was rewarded for that, right. Uh, all my life, all my career. Right. So performance, the mind was working all the time, little time. So then you get this neck and shoulder problem because you are doing too much. Um, so your body is telling you, can you stop for a while and reflect and face your emotion and deal with your emotions so that you are in a state of well being where you can be present for others and you can actually achieve more with less, uh, effort. |
| Lyssa deHart | I think it’s also an interesting idea for people, not just coaches, but for people to consider where you come in the drama triangle is going to be dependent on who you are as a person and where you were, I don’t know, rewarded and how you were rewarded for showing up. So in some people’s lives, it might be not that they’re being intentionally, uh, an aggressor, but it may come from that aggressive stance. Right? Like, the more powerful I am, the more people leave me alone. So I kind of generally start in that corner or we come into the world through that idea, the lens of the victim, where people help us if we’re helpless. Right? And so we get the sort of the secondary gain of being saved, um, on a regular basis. That movement into the center is, uh, really interesting to me because you don’t want to go I mean, if I’m hearing you correctly, it’s not about the movement from helper to aggressor or help her to victim. It’s the movement into some holistic center space. Am I hearing you correctly? And can you talk more about that? |
| Christine Billy | Yeah. So I was very interested by the research and the drama triangle M. It really resonated with me. And so, uh, there are publication around how you can move from the edge to the center gradually by taking intermediate roles, let’s say. Okay, so, interestingly enough and that’s a link with our discussion around coaching here, uh, the intermediate role, uh, from helper, your preferred role helper to the center of the triangle is named Coach. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yes, of course it is. |
| Christine Billy | Really? When I read that, I said yes, absolutely. The difference from the helper and the coach is that, uh, um, the positive intention is still there, for sure. Uh, but instead of doing all the work yourself, trying to find solution by yourself, uh, even when you are not sure if the other ones else, you are first asking, what do you want as a coach? Aligning on that. And so creating a partnership, uh, contract. And then when the framework is there, you have aligned on the framework. There is a lot of creative inside, a lot of dancing together and getting comfortable, not knowing. Instead of trying to focus on solution, you focus on questions. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah. |
| Christine Billy | So it’s totally different, um, stage because you have the pleasure to move forward together without being concerned, uh, of the results, focusing on the process. So, for me, the shift is to move from helper to Coach, is to focus on the result, to focus on the solution, to focus on the question which nicely bring you in the center of the triangle, which is name assertive positioning, where after asking yourself, what do I need to feel good? What’s important for me? And giving you what you need, then you can be present for others and ask them, um, what’s important for you? What do you need to feel good? And then Cook creates the future together right. |
| Lyssa deHart | And allowing them to lead that, uh, developmental element of self reflection that they generate internally by the question that you ask versus you telling them, here’s the prescription to heal you right. So that you can be an ultimate health. |
| Christine Billy | I’m uploading because you just highlighted why I made the shift from, um, curing to preventing. Because I understood at some point that, yes, uh, we are prescribing something. We are as researcher, as scientists, we try to understand something and then we develop something which could be useful. And sometime it is. Yes. I’m not saying we don’t need to do that. And, ah, if we can ask, ah, questions and help people to help themselves before they get disease, that’s even better. That, uh, is the reason why I made the shift, because I could be still on the side of curing. And I think it’s, again, I think it’s very important because when you are sick, you need support, for sure, there is a part you can work on yourself, but you need also help when it’s needed. But if you can prevent it’s, even better. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah. And I mean, I love this, uh, exploration, um, into this inquiry, right. Um, this movement from helper into Coach, because we all come in at different elements of this triangle also. Right. So it’s not just that everybody comes in as a helper. Honestly, I don’t think that I came in as a helper. I think I came in not as a victim. I probably came in more from the assertive role. Right. And so, like, my own movement towards the center in my mind, and I’m curious if there’s other ways into the center, like how people move into the center. My experience of moving into the center, if I am even in the center, which I hope I am, at least I’m always working towards the center, um, was to let go of control. Right. And that also fits with coaching right. With this letting go of the need to be right, or the need to, um, control the environment so that I’m safe, which is where I came from in my experience. And so I’m just curious, from, um, your perspective, what are the other avenues for people who maybe don’t come in as helpers? And not all coaches start off as helpers some of us end up here because we do enough of our own work that we’re like, hey, I like this now because this has been a really interesting experience I’ve been on in this life. |
| Christine Billy | That’s great that you underline that. Okay. We have preferred role and we can all go into the center. And it’s great that you say that not all coaches come from ALPA. Absolutely not. Here. Um, I believe that it’s not so much about, um, from where you come from, it’s your journey which comes okay. So, M, the research shows that for each, uh, side of the triangle, you have intermediate, uh, role you can take eventually. So the intermediate role for the persecutor is named challenger. So, again, in this role, you will set your mind, you will challenge in a positive way instead of trying to control. |
| Lyssa deHart | I just had a connection with something you said earlier, which is that caring to, um daring. Right? I came from daring and needed to caring. |
| Christine Billy | Yes. How nice is that? What you just described also with the body language. Lyssa, if I may, it’s connecting. Mhm our beautiful results. We are all trying to connect and, uh, to find ourselves and connect with others like we feel. One, it’s extremely powerful when this happens, and I dare to say that I feel very connected with you, uh, as, ah, we talk about this topic and we show about our own experience. Um, um, there is, I think, at least this is what my understanding is at the moment. Um, a perception or a belief sometimes that to protect ourselves, we need to control. And this is usually coming from what we name trauma or specific experience in life when we didn’t feel safe and we didn’t have, um, the full understanding. Uh, usually this happens when we are kids, the full understanding of the situation or the same as we have as adults. And so we interpreted that we need to control to feel safe. In reality, at least, this is my experience. The best positioning for, uh, feeling safe is openness. |
| Lyssa deHart | Right? But that takes courage. And I mean, they all take courage, right? I’m sure they all take courage, but boy, that’s a scary thing for a person to do who has spent their whole entire life trying to control things so that they can feel safe, right? Just like trying to help people in order to avoid looking at whatever it is that we do. |
| Christine Billy | Honestly, I think life is about learning that I do too. From control to openness, huh? That’s our wisdom. Um, because we are all unique. We all have a story in life. My experience in coaching is that, uh, if you create a safe space, uh, respectful space, where there is no judgment on the curiosity and you are with the person or the team, then at some point people dare to say things sometimes that they have never said to anybody else. And um, that’s what we name a moment where they realize that they can face um, their emotions, their belief and uh it’s not dangerous, it’s a relief. So it’s a unique experience. |
| Lyssa deHart | Um yeah but boy doesn’t it open. I mean when we move through these doorways of the unknown and we step through something that liminal space right into something new um, there’s a confidence that comes from having taken the steps and done the work to get there that then shows up in other ways. Which really makes me think then also about at the bottom of the triangle, the person who’s coming into the space through the victim role. What do you see as the engagement towards the center for the victim? |
| Christine Billy | Yes. So uh, for this role, the research shows that the intermediate step is so called creator. And I have a very good example. I just did a coaching before our discussion and for sure I will keep things very confusing. |
| Lyssa deHart | You can share the learning though. The learning. |
| Christine Billy | Just the learning. Okay. Because it’s very fresh in my mind. Um, I had a very nice feedback from a person who was struggling for years feeling like uh helpless in terms of interacting with people and setting up positive relationships. Um, so she was navigating between um not doing, not trying or pushing too much. So creating a lot of uh uh, chaos let’s say. Um uh and also a uh lot of stress for uh herself not understanding what was going on. So when we were able to tackle this dharma triangle she was able to identify a uh, role and she identified that she was playing GT most of the time as a preferred role. And when she could then start um, as a creator to uh ask more questions and to share ideas without trying to control the outcome of it. She shared with me the powerful shift it has with her uh, manager and the colleagues. So she was able really in 1 hour to change. Really she said it’s really transformational. But now she perceive things very differently, the relationship very differently. So she’s not scared anymore. She’s confident that she can share what comes as ideas ah, and receive feedback without trying to avoid or push it’s more like you try to find I think during life we are moving from um, being stable to being unstable. Right. Like when we work stable, unstable. |
| Lyssa deHart | Stable, unstable. Stable, unstable. |
| Christine Billy | Yes. Um so it’s really uh sometimes we forget we do that all the time mhm. It’s just coming back to this idea that we need security and we need also uh surprise. |
| Lyssa deHart | And that brings you out of balance, right? Yeah. |
| Christine Billy | That brings you in the center. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah. The other thing that shows up as you’re talking about this too is a sense of um well a couple of things come to mind when I think of people moving from that primary victim role into a state of maybe the confidence to be able to do it on your own. Right. Like that you’re working on your own sense of agency and your own sense of autonomy. Um, and to become empowered, to not need somebody to save you or to appreciate you or to whatever you in order for you to feel okay. But rather that sense of I have that within myself. That, um, internal ownership. |
| Christine Billy | Yeah. I, uh, think it’s caring and daring summarize very well. It’s, um, on both sides, on all three of them. |
| Lyssa deHart | I think you need to find that in yourself. |
| Christine Billy | I think we have two sides. That’s why it’s so interesting for me, uh, this neck and shoulder tension we have when we try to do too much, because it’s like we lose the equilibrium in the body of the movements that we need. We are too static sometimes. So it’s like, um, accepting that, uh, things happen during the day, and it’s appreciating the emotion, um, the salt of life. Right. Um, feeling, um yeah. Daring to feel. Right. |
| Lyssa deHart | Daring to feel well, and I think, too, it’s sort of interesting also, because I was just talking to somebody yesterday, and, um, we were talking about the tension with coaches around going too deeply into things with people like that. Everybody wants to stay out of the story. Nobody wants to be the therapist, to accidentally trip into the role of therapist. And, um, the thought that came to me as we were talking was that it wasn’t about the depth of going deep with clients. That is the problem. It is that we don’t need to go into the depth of their trauma, but we can go into the depth of their awareness and insights. And that takes courage, though, also, because now maybe we’re letting go of knowing so that we can ask the challenging question or we can the creative question or the insightful question that supports their internal awareness. Um, but the depth is such a part of it. And the discomfort of going into depth is something that we have to explore in order to be able to show up in a more partnered way with people. |
| Christine Billy | Yes. And also to live your life fully, I would say. Because, uh, for most of us, uh, we, uh, have used our brain a lot, right? And then we forget that we have a body and we have feelings. And this is very useful and complementary. And they have to be aligned, the heart and the mind, to, um, feel good, authentic, and to have nice relationship with people and impact. For this, you’ll need to reconnect with your feelings and your body. And for most of us, it’s pretty uncomfortable because, um, I’m really interested and fascinating by this topic of emotions and how we deal with emotions. And, um, um, what I realize for myself and others, uh, it can feel very scary, as you said, to feel what’s, uh, going to happen. Uh, will I die. Maybe that’s the ultimate question. If I feel too much right, there is fear, how can I handle that? Especially if I was not connected to my body for a while, right? |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah. |
| Christine Billy | Different education or um, experience of life. And it’s only when you face it. I often say emotions are really great, uh, tools because they tell us uh, where there is a difference, apparently in the way I perceive the environment and the reality I would like to see. So it’s very useful. Otherwise we are blind. We don’t know how to talk. So you sense it because you sense positive or so called negative energy. It’s energy anyway, but it’s coming in the body, some reaction. And then if you have uh, the courage to face it and look at it, okay, what is that? Ah, and what do I want to do with that? What do I learn? Then the emotion goes. Otherwise you carry it for bound into you. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah. |
| Christine Billy | And you can carry that for yours and don’t feel very good. And that can block your relationship with others as well because you are in fear. What’s going to happen if I feel a new emotion and then I am um, full? It’s really like taking the courage to face things by verbalizing right or something. But just look at it there to look at it. |
| Lyssa deHart | Um, I really think that emotions tell us things. I see them as doorways also um, into understanding and awareness. And if we can be, again to your point, brave enough to explore what’s showing up for us. It gives us so much information versus the shutting it down and the stopping it, which then unconsciously we’re still responding to whatever that is that we’re avoiding. It doesn’t go away just because we’re not looking at it. You can sweep something under the rug and it’s still under the rug exactly. |
| Christine Billy | To the point that uh, we exchange energy all the time with other even through the screen, doesn’t change anything. So people feel it. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah. |
| Christine Billy | You don’t need to say anything. People feel your level of energy and the level of energy to come back to the drama triangle, if that makes sense. The level of energy of so called persecutor uh, victim and helper is not the same. So you unfortunately because it’s not so nice to be in the drama triangle, you unfortunately attract complimentary m people because of the level of energy or situation. And when you are in the center, you have a different level of energy and uh, you tend to attract people on the same level of energy which is facilitating your life. So that’s really important to understand. This is totally unconscious. So that’s why you see repeated circumstances in the life of people until at some point they stop and then they face what they need to face. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah, it’s sort of interesting. At one point in my life I looked at the people that I had. Surrounding me. And I’m like, these are all lovely people, but they’re not the right people for me. Right? But there was that fear of, like, if I was authentically myself, what if I were rejected? Right? Like, I think that this is a common kind of theme in human experience. I don’t want to be rejected, or I don’t want to not be liked, or what if I say something, if somebody gets mad at me? Or whatever that is, right? And that learning to step into that compassionate detachment with how we ourselves are stepping into the world and holding ourselves accountable. Like, is my head and heart, like, am m I in alignment with the people I’m surrounding myself with, with the energy I’m surrounding myself with. And I think that’s really crucial. And I really think going back into the idea of coaching with this, I say the word requirement. Nobody’s required to do anything in this life, uh, when it comes to self reflection. Yet I think to be in real partnership and to be truly authentic in a relationship with another human being means that we’re exploring these elements of ourself. Now, here’s another question, because I’ve noticed this in my own experience, too, which is I think that sometimes we move around the drama triangle. Like, we might have a preferred style, but if I come in as a helper because I’m going to help you, and then you see me as a helper to begin with, but then you start to see me as a persecutor because I’m trying to make you do something different. And then you are like, but I’m just trying to help and become the victim. We can all change our roles within this dynamic as well. And so it’s not just like there’s one right way to come into it. We play all the parts. |
| Christine Billy | Um um, absolutely. I’m, um, also very interested in what my clients because we work with this tool quite often, and then they collect, uh, stories, and then we talk about the stories. Uh, it’s very complex and interesting, actually. Uh, you can, uh, play with yourself. Okay? So you can play in only the best way possible. We have so many ways of fun. Okay, so we start with our preferred role, for sure. So we have a judgment. We start drama triangle with ourselves, and then we can turn with playing with ourselves at different roles. Uh, we can persecute ourselves, we can help ourselves. We can be a victim of ourselves. We can play alternatively or even more complex together simultaneously. Okay? Um, so that’s one thing. And then if you want to make it even more fun and consciously, you will at, uh, the same time play with others. I’m just giving examples. There are so many different stories. So you are playing already with yourself, and then you start, uh, again with somebody else. And, uh, you may be also involved with another one. So this happens quite often, actually, without we don’t notice. The only way you can notice, and that’s a link with your setting emotion is that you will recognize it if you are, uh, connected with your body. And then you say, m, I’m not feeling very good in this relationship. Something is I don’t know, something is happening. You can be sure you are in advance. Otherwise you will feel happy. Um, relax yourself, enjoying all of that. |
| Lyssa deHart | And this is just my perspective, but I think it takes a bit of not taking it all so seriously in order to start to play with this stuff. Also to bring that playful spirit into it. It’s like, oh, and this is honestly conversations I’ve had with my husband where I’m like, I’m feeling like you’re persecuting me. He’ll be like, no, I’m feeling like the victim because I was just trying to help. But we’re playing with it. But it’s also true. But by bringing it into awareness for both of us, then we can also not take our situation quite so seriously, whatever that situation is. So it’s such a powerful tool for awareness. And also, if you’d like, have fun with it, right? Like make it fun if I made it. |
| Christine Billy | You really summarize, uh, what I also have in my mind, which is a link, I believe, with fun and, uh, health. Okay, probably people were always surprised because I was found as a scientist and work in the farmland, which is for 20 years. So people are always surprised and sometimes even shocked. But again, I’m not saying that medicine is useless. I’m just saying that we know that fun is the best medicine. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yes. Laughter. |
| Christine Billy | Because, uh, what happens physiologically is that it shakes your body, all the organs and it helps to make movements in size, which is so important, the blood and the length and all of that. So very good. Uh, so to prevent disease to Afghano, huh? Uh, so to laugh together, laugh about yourself, laugh about with others in a positive way. Right? In a positive intention. So the language is dramaturing all and how my clients use that is that okay, notice them, uh, collect them and laughs about them. So I have clients, they share with their teams and they all talk about this, that change. I got feedback, very, uh, positive feedback. The change it makes in relationship, it’s incredible because now they understand what’s happening and they also realize that we are all human, we are not perfect. So it’s totally normal. From time to time, let’s say we are under pressure and then unconsciously, we enter in the drama trainer and then they say, oh, you are doing your preferred role at the moment. These drama tries and to stop the game. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah. Which is what it is. It’s an unconscious game we’re playing where we get to pick our little game piece and then we lock ourselves into it forever. Versus recognizing we are capable of everything. It’s interesting. I took an acting class, um, several years ago, and one of the things that the acting, um, teacher had said to me is if you’re a human being, you’re capable of every single emotional expression of humanness that is available in the universe. Right. It’s all available to you. It’s your job to discover it. In a way, I love that this came up because I think that’s so much a part of coaching is to bring the invisible into visible so that we can be a choice about how we’re going to choose to approach a situation or a person or, um, a conversation or whatever it is that we’re approaching and be a choice about how we’re going to do that. And is this because it’s my preferred role, the best way? Or is there something within that center which is in my mind at this moment is like all the potential possibilities of how we might, uh, approach a situation or a person or a thing. Right. |
| Christine Billy | Beautifully said. Absolutely. So leadership is at the center where everything is possible. You can play, you can choose. Because we have all humanity in ourselves. The reason why we tend to play a preferred role is because of education, of culture, of filters, of beliefs. We have accumulated, uh HM. To understand and realize that you can play different roles in the drama triangle, very different emotions, if you want. Very powerful, because it helps you to be at, uh, ease with yourself and with others. We are all human. Right. And it’s about choice. So you want to be intentional about your choice. And for that, you need to, uh, have awareness and play together and learn. Um, that’s why we interact with others, actually, is to learn, is to learn about ourselves and release our potential and be intentional. Yes. How do we want to present ourselves? Um, how does that facilitate the achievement of our vision? How does that help with using our trends and all of that? Which is a beautiful journey, I think. |
| Lyssa deHart | To your earlier point, it’s the journey of a lifetime. Right. It’s what you do between in the gap, uh, to explore this experience that you’re having and how do you want to explore it and what is the energy you want to align yourself with. That’s a choice you have. Um, this has been just such a lovely conversation. I just so much appreciate it. Um, I think you’ve shared a lot about really a what you’re passionate about, but also, I think there’s so many gyms in here for coaches to take away from as ways of exploring themselves. How do you see people getting support and doing the work that’s needed in order to really be able to show up so fully with themselves and with others. |
| Christine Billy | Yeah. And I think there is also a link with the topic of how to develop as a coach, my learning, and to summarize what we discuss uh, from my perspective is that, uh, it’s about caring and not carrying the waste. Right. A key turning point. Um, again, the power is in the question. Caring to open the space for discussion and not necessarily trying to do too much to find a way. So being focused on the process and not the results, which is a big shift. And I struggled for a while with that, uh, because I was so attached to the results and my helper was like, I really struggled, I really felt the transformation. And um, I think we need to struggle at some point, uh, to develop. We need to find our way. And I think coaching is beautiful process for that, because for sure, you can learn at some training, you can observe others, you can get a mentor, uh, supervision, et cetera. All of that is great. At the end, you have to take the responsibility to face what you have to face and to struggle to get where you want to be. You need to dare. Um, you can set up a caring framework at the end. You need to do it right. You there to try and get there in the new zone, sometimes comfortable process, that’s metaphor of life from birth to death. So it’s like, from time to time we struggle and it’s necessary. It’s like this, it’s part of life. There, uh, were research showing that if you help caterpillar, uh, to transform in a butterfly, it won’t fly. |
| Lyssa deHart | There’s nobody who can open your crystal. Yeah, there’s nobody who can open your crystallis for you but you, or that’s, um, you out of your egg. I think they found similar things with birds and chicks that got help. They need that process of breaking through the egg in order to strengthen themselves. I think they ultimately learn how to fly, but it takes probably longer because there’s something needed in that struggle. Plus, how boring would life be if it was one note throughout the entirety of it? I mean, we need these challenges. Not everybody’s going to climb Mount Everest, and frankly, based on everything I’ve seen, people should stop climbing Mount Everest or killing Mount Everest, but that’s a whole another topic. But we have our own internal Mount Everest that we could be climbing. |
| Christine Billy | Mhm, yeah, it’s, it’s a way to develop confidence. |
| Lyssa deHart | Yeah. Yeah, that’s brilliant. So, you know, I have a final question that I ask people as we come to a close. If you were writing your autobiography today, could, um, be different tomorrow, but Today, what would you title your autobiography today? |
| Christine Billy | Well, I think I keep on this aspect of caring and daring. Um, she cared and she dared to, um, develop a vision and move forward in that direction. |
| Lyssa deHart | Right. |
| Christine Billy | Um, yeah. Ah. I think that’s really, um christine dying. |
| Lyssa deHart | Caring and daring. |
| Christine Billy | Yes. |
| Lyssa deHart | I love that. Christine, thank you so much for being on the coaching studio. And I will have links below to everything so people can find you and, uh, learn more from you. And thank you so much for being here today. I have thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. |
| Christine Billy | Thank you so much, Lyssa. It has been really a pleasure. I, um, realized it’s been almost 1 hour, and I didn’t realize that, so I was really enjoying the moment with you. Thank, uh, you for the opportunity, and we, uh, stay in touch. And, yes, um, something was created in this relationship, and now I’m curious to see how this will develop. And also, for those who are listening to this, I hope, uh, you got, uh, something useful. And I would be very happy to connect with you and to listen about what you learned from that, because, um, that’s how we all contribute to moving, uh, forward. So thanks again. Absolutely. |
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Lyssa deHart, LICSW, MCC
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Lyssa deHart ditched her therapy practice to become a Leadership Confidence Coach. Along the way she discovered a passion for professional coaching and wanted to find ways to share that passion with the world. Come join her in discovering and meeting some of the most amazing professional coaches on the planet. Her goal is to inspire coaches. Lyssa is the author of StoryJacking: Change Your Dialogue, Transform Your Life , and The Reflective Coach. Lyssa is an ICF PCC Assessor, Certified Mentor Coach, and budding Coach SuperVisor. Lyssa uses her understanding of the ICF Core Competencies, combined with her knowledge of Neuroscience, to work with people to become extraordinary professional coaches. Let's Go!
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